Interview with George and Woodie Terrell (Vessel and Lamb)

When did you join the Family and why?
George: I joined in April of 1971, and Woodie joined in August of that same year. Both of us had been seriously looking for a way to give ourselves completely to the Lord, and when we discovered the Family, we were convinced that we had found what we were looking for.

Where did you join?
George: Zion colony (Brenham, Texas) was about 200 miles from where I grew up. After seeing a prophet tract and a reprint of the original Rolling Stone article about Jeremy Spencer having joined the Children of God, I decided to hitchhike down after school one Friday afternoon with the idea of taking a weekend to check them out. I wound up staying, even though I was just 4 weeks away from my high school graduation.

Did you meet Woodie in the group?
George: Woodie and I first met at TSC, in August of '71. She arrived with a busload of others who had joined with the Jesus People Army in Vancouver. A few months later we had a chance to work together at a babes ranch in Grapeland, Texas. She was in charge of the girls and the kitchen; I was in charge of the boys and the music. She liked my guitar playing; I liked her cooking. That's where I wrote "Cabbage Stew", which is, by the way, the first --and probably the silliest-- love song ever written in the Family.
(Woodie: He was also a Bible prophecy teacher and I loved Bible prophecy.)

Why did you leave, or were you asked to leave?
George: We left in July of 1984. It was our own decision. Beginning about 1982, we had begun to hear some basic teachings about the rights and privileges that come with the new birth. We discovered that one of the fundamental differences between the old and new covenants is that, before the price of sin had been paid, God had pretty limited access to humanity. Though He desired to be as close to people as possible, they could not bear His presence. So a series of stop-gap measures were set up until the sin problem could be remedied. His Spirit was only available to prophets, priests, and kings. Anything God had to say would have to come through them.
In the new covenant, since Jesus bore our sin, God's Spirit can actually live inside EVERY believer. Everyone who is born again has full and complete access to the very throne of God. This means, then , that the role of the new testament prophet is very different than it was in the old testament: he now serves only to confirm what the Spirit is already communicating to the people concerned -- a group or an individual. We decided that we could no longer look to David Berg to hear from the Lord for us. Besides, we were seeing more and more problems with the MO Letters, both in how far they had strayed from biblical teaching, and in how much authority they held over us. It was time for us to claim our own inheritance; to get into the driver's seat and, by the leading of God's Spirit within us, assume control of the day-to-day direction of our lives -- with all the possibilities and problems that could await us.

Did you go through any emotional trauma?
George: Yes, we did. Although we managed to leave with our own little family intact, our closest friends were still in the group. We completely lost access to them, and had no way of knowing where to find other ex-members (At the time, if we had known, I'm not sure we would have wanted to fellowship with them). We had to start over alone and from scratch, both spiritually and materially. It was very discouraging, and we experienced some real depression in those first few years out of the Family. We never doubted that we had made the right choice, but it was still hard.
Woodie: I think one area that must be plainly addressed is the specific trauma that results from the effects of FFing, that required "witnessing" by using sex as an enticement, and the Techi and Davidito Letters that encouraged sexual relations with and between children. The deep scars and emotional trauma that has resulted from these abuses are very real and difficult to overcome. Please, don't anyone give me that old sorry lie about "these things never happened and it was not really encouraged, just some people got carried away. " I was there and so were you, and there were serious consequences for NOT following these directives; even to deprivations, the removal of a spouse or child or abandonment. The long-term effects of these practices are often hidden in guilt, self debasement, deep depression and other anger and fear related symptoms. Yes, though The Lord has done for me a wondrous healing, He is still softening some of the deep scars of FFing in my own life. We were fortunate enough to be out of the center of the frenzy before it really got wide spread. I have many friends who were not. And by the way, God doesn't have any Whores; he has Daughters and Sons.

Some kids say they were abused. Who do you think is mainly at fault? The parents, the group, or the local home shepherds?
George: I think certain teachings in the Family cause parents to relinquish their God-given responsibility to protect their children. The group lays out policies and programs that serve ITS interests; the local shepherd is expected to implement what the group has decided on; with some regard for the sheep, but the parents SHOULD have the last word. And that last word should be spoken in the CHILD'S best interest. So the answer is 'all of the above.'

What is one of the things you are most thankful for the COG and one of the things you were not so thankful for?
George: I will always be grateful for what I learned about witnessing and soul-winning in the Family. In the early days, that was the main emphasis, and we learned to turn any conversation toward the Lord; any chance meeting into a divine encounter.
I am not so thankful for the times that I let others back me down from my personal convictions. I too often chose the "party line" over loyalty to friends, family, and Bible.

In your opinion, why do so many people talk about the group after having been out for years?
George: People talk about their college days or their first job or first date years afterwards. Our time in the Family was life-or-death, all-or-nothing; the best of times, the worst of times. It involved everything from tooth-brushing to sex to our own version of history. Many of us were in the group from our teen years to our grandparent years. Of course we still talk about it.
Woodie: We dedicated our lives to this group -- our marriages, our children, our fortunes, our thoughts and our bodies. That might just effect a bit of the rest of our lives. But then, as George once said, and I agree, "I will not allow the Family to be the defining point of my WHOLE life." There is just too much to life to let just one doctrine, man, philosophy or experience be the definition of my life. Only Jesus has that place in my life once again and I'd rather we, Jesus and I, would define my future together.

The Family has never lost one court case. Does that make the group look better, or safer -- or not, in your opinion?
George: The Family learned years ago to be very "creative" in their dealings with the public, and have never been above saying whatever suited their purposes, in or out of a courtroom.

What was your job in the group?
George: Mostly, I was a musician. I played in the TSC Band, and we were both in a pioneering band in Italy. Woodie and I busked all over the Mediterranean . We performed with people like Cana Bird, Chronicles, Jonas, Faithy and Miguel. We played at Catholic masses, a couple of pop festivals, and at least one communist rally. When we weren't playing, Woodie usually got stuck in a kitchen somewhere. I did some childcare, and later taught Bible prophecy at a babe's ranch, as Woodie mentioned. We shepherded a couple of homes; I did some layout work in Italian pubs, and even illustrated a Kids' Komix -- all while Woodie and I were trying to figure out how to function together as a couple with a family.

What do you think is one of the great needs for people when they leave the group?
George: I think maybe the greatest need is to learn to see our experience in the Family in perspective: to see both the good and the bad and to be willing to learn from them both, and to realize that the Lord is able to turn it all to an ultimate good if we will trust Him.
Woodie: I would like to say something about this question. I believe the greatest need for people leaving the family is to learn to think and respect their own feelings, opinions and abilities. In almost any large group structure the group begins to have more value than the individual; thus the individual must conform to the group in deed and thought. This pattern happens in large corporations. The danger of this is the weakness it produces in the individuals who, rather than learning to think as an individual, moderates and bows every thought to the opinion or purpose of the group.
Though this submissive behavior may seem like an asset in the group structure, it tends to wear on the person's ability to discern right and wrong, hear from God, read with out a preprogram of how to interpret it, effectively and protectively parent, build lasting relationships based on trust and integrity, continue maturing as a unique individual created in the image of the Creator God. Humans were never intended to rule one another, but to rule together over the earth. The woman was told "He will rule over you." after the fall. Prophets and kings were put in place for a people who would not, or could not have a relationship with God because of their fallen nature. But the women and men of the Redeemed Church are free from the Old Law and it's bondage. We have become a new creation in Christ. (2Cor 5:17-21) It would be wise if we became as the Bereans and would "search the scripture daily, with all readiness of mind to see whether these things be true." (Acts 17)
There are a few problems to this process. It's much the same as the problems of raising teens. In the seeking of autonomy and individuality often, in frustration and anger we lose ourselves. I found that the sense of time wasted can bring on a lot of discouraging and depressing thoughts when beginning a process that should have begun some years ago. But here we are with a slew of kids, some going through there own growing pains. A spouse you've been taught to judge and suspect, if you even have one. Add a huge lack of experience and education compounded with the frustration of having to deal with a system we only know to hate and fear. Yes, it was a Revolution for Jesus, but now it's survival.
It's a difficult process. But remember, we are fearfully and wonderfully made. I do believe we joined for the right reasons. I've quit trying to figure what went wrong with us or the Family. Rebuild the your relationship with the Living Christ. Read the Bible again and for yourself. Try a different translation. Learn something new. Respect and learn from some one you don't really like. Go to school or teach a class. Do something for someone who can't do you any favors. Do something for yourself; just yourself. Read a book by someone you disagree with or just to help someone else.
Who will you be 20 years from now? It's your choice today. You can choose wisely. You have the mind of Christ.

"I cease not to pray for you, and desire that you might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God, strengthened with all might." Col 1:9-10

Where there is Life there is Hope.    

What kind of job do you have now?
George: I have a specialty cleaning business. I clean carpets and oriental rugs; all kinds of upholstered furniture, including silk, wool, leather and suede. Sometimes I am called upon to stain and finish brick or Mexican tile floors, or to seal and wax flagstone or slate floors. I also repair and polish marble.
Woodie: I am working with our city's parks and recreation department to build a water aerobics program. Since we have a heated pool, it's great for people with joint problems and circulation problems. I also teach kids and adults to swim.

Were your kids born in the group and if so how are they doing?
George: We have seven kids, and all but one of them were born in the Family. They have all had things to overcome, and some of them are still struggling with their faith. Others of them have made a serious commitment to the Lord and have actually spent time on the mission field. They'll all do fine.
Woodie: Learning to trust that God cares for my children and has His hand on them was a difficult realization. But just as they will always be my children and I will love them forever, so does my Father love me. I can catch a glimpse of God's love for me in my love for my children. Thus I can trust Him. "All my children are taught of the Lord, and Great is the Peace of my Children." Is. 54:13. God himself is committed to them and He will and does teach them and He will and does bring them Peace. I can trust him. That's really hard sometimes. They can be so ornery, and I am far from perfect. But I LOVE them so.

Why do most of the former members not form another group, and why is there so much disagreement?
George: Most ex-members are really hard on themselves for some of the poor choices they have made in the past. They're also mistrustful of other people who desire to lead, or who feel that they have a right to tell others what they should believe. They're trying to rebuild their foundations, in many cases, which requires a lot of sorting and clearing away -- while at the same time trying to get a career going and raise a family that is also dealing with hurt. Add to that the fact that we are not getting all our Christian input from one source, as Family members are.
The Body of Christ outside the Family has been developing for 2000 years, and there's a rich written record of the things that Christians of other generations have experienced and the lessons they have learned. We lessen our chances of falling into error by studying about what went on before the Jesus Revolution. The downside of this is that by reading widely and exposing ourselves to different influences, we can sometimes arrive at different conclusions about things and be pulled in different directions.

What kind of Bible school did you attend, and what lessons have you learned since you've been out that can help others?
George: There are some good correspondence-type schools that can be very flexible, and not too expensive. You have to be aware of the different doctrinal positions, and make sure they're really taking you in the direction you want to go. The church we were attending during the "Go to the Churches" push received daily satellite emissions from a Bible college. At the time, I was driving a school bus, teaching kindergarten and first grade, and doing janitorial work at night. We were trying to raise funds and support to be able to return to the field, so I had absolutely no time to attend the classes. They allowed me to tape the broadcasts, and I listened to them at night while I was cleaning toilets and wiping out ashtrays. I hated the job, but those nights alone hearing the Word changed me forever. Since the classes were all on tape, Woodie got to listen to them all, too, so we always had plenty to discuss whenever our schedules intersected.
The greatest lesson I've learned is that God is not insulted or alarmed by my questions. We all know that doubts can be destructive, but there are also doubts that lead to the kinds of questions that bring us closer to the Truth.

Does the Family has the right to exist?
George: Certainly. But people also have the right to know what the Family really believes. There are lots of things I disagree with in Family doctrine, but it's the deception that is really offensive to me. If you believe it, say it, and stand by it. "If the truth kills, let it kill," as the MO Letter says. We always took that to apply to someone we were "telling off." It should also apply to the one doing the "telling."

Do you still have contact with the group?
George: We had no contact at all for 9 years, even with former members. A chain of events starting in 1993 brought us back into contact, first with some ex-members in Georgia and Texas, then with Faithy, Mother Eve, Stephen and Jethro, then with the Laurel home, Simon Black, and finally with Peter and Gary and some of the CROs. There are some people we're in quite regular contact with, and we're open to more.

What do you think of the Laurel Home Fellowships?
George: They've been a great blessing to us, and as far as I can see, to loads of others. The fellowships have been a bright spot in the lives of many FMs, and a testimony to the CM Family. They have provided a safe place for some long-overdue dialog between CMs, FMs and ex-ers. In my opinion, everybody connected with the Family benefits from the Laurel Home Fellowships, directly or indirectly.

Do you think that the leaders that helped to set up the rules bear some responsibilities, and if so how much?
George: All of us are responsible for our own decisions, but if we take upon ourselves the power to make decisions that affect the lives of others, then certainly we bear the responsibility that goes with that power. "My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation" (James 3:1)
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What kind of ministry are you involved in right now?
George: We still pretty much do what we have always done. Both of us are still involved in music, and we still find lots of opportunities to share the message of redemption with the unsaved. If anything has changed, it is that we devote more time to bringing practical teaching to people who are already saved. Redemption includes not only the new birth, but our lifelong growth and development into the "fullness of the stature of Christ." After nearly 30 years of ministry to children and youth, we are now take turns teaching a group of older women at my parents' church (As our kids start to have more grandchildren, I'm sure we'll still be doing "children's ministry"!). We try to be an encouragement to ex-Family members, but we also get calls and e-mails from people still in the group -- both CM and FM. Trust (at 1-800-4-A-FAMILY) has helped us to reunite some ex-members with spouses or children who have remained in the Family. Mainly, we just try to represent Jesus. I think He's about bringing people together and building them up.