Q: When did you join the Family and why?

A: I joined the Family in 1969, I had just converted to Christianity a month before, had a great conversion experience and had moved with some Christians in a Baptist church building. One of the two leaders there was Lyon who had just left Uncle Dave’s group, as Berg was called back then. Joel and Shadruck and Happy were in charge of a team that was traveling through the Southwest and came to visit Lyon. I was impressed by their dedication and the way they shouted, "Revolution!" "For Jesus!". Joel told me that if I really wanted to follow Jesus I would have to forsake my job. I quit my job the next day. A big argument broke out one night between the two groups and I decided to go with Joel and the rest. A number of long hared Jesus people tried to reach out to me to stop me from joining but I did and the rest, as they say, is history. Jack Sparks a Christian leader who was present during the big argument that night, later wrote a book on cults called "The Mind Benders." I would see the book in bookstores when out witnessing and litnessing.

Q: Where did you join?

A: I joined in Berkeley, California.

Q: Did you meet Aza (Sam’s wife) in the group?

A: No, Aza was never in the group.

Q: Why did you leave or were you asked to leave?

A: I left the group two times, I left the first time in 1974, soon after the Kohoutek fiasco. I left the group for the second and final time in 1979. By this time the group’s girls had started doing escort work. Huge front-page headlines were appearing in the newspapers and Greek ecclesiastical leaders were anathematizing the COG. About this time I got herpes, as VD was widespread in the homes in Athens. It was at this time that we received the "My Little Fish" chapter, showing Sara performing oral sex on Davidito, etc. I was troubled. One day, as I was walking around the Acropolis, I made two lists on a small piece of paper. One was of all the good things in the COG. On the other list where the bad things. The good was very good. The bad was very bad. Though my mind was still very clouded, the list of the bad things was so overwhelming that soon thereafter I ended up leaving.

Q: Did you go through any emotional trauma?

A: The first two years were very difficult. I felt like a vegetable, direction-less and devastated. I had invested everything in the group. I had watched it grow from one hundred members when I joined into the thousands. It hit me hard that I had been separated from my wife in the Family and was far from our daughter.

Q: Some kids said they where abused. Who you think is the most responsible? The group, the local home Shepherds or the parents.

A: All of the above. By the way, I believe many kids were abused. It would have been more appropriate to use the word "many" instead of the world "some" in your question. Judge Ward said child-adult sex in the Family was widespread. To return to your question, the most responsible is Berg who corrupted his followers with his heretical doctrines and practices. Mother Eve is also responsible for not exposing Berg whenever she found out that he was molesting Faithy and Deborah. Deborah is also responsible for joining when she knew her father was a pedophile, thus opening the way for Berg to sexually molest her daughter Joyanne. Parents in the group are fully responsible, as well as the Shepherds. The whole group is responsible, and every single member of it that knew about it and/or practiced it. Generally speaking the higher the position in the group they more the responsibility. I would consider Zerby, Kelly and Sarah extremely responsible.

Q: What is one of the things you are most thankful for the COG and one of the things you were not so thankful for.

A: I had some of the happiest days in my life litnessing for hours. I can’t think of anything I didn’t like in the group’s army like, structured and well disciplined lifestyle. I was very dedicated to the group and had decided to spend the rest of my life in it. My experience in the group taught me the power of united effort, as well as the risk of abuse of power by a dictatorial leader. One thing that I resent is that I was not told the whole truth when I joined.

If Berg wanted to mix Christianity with pedophilia and free sex that’s his problem. If he is so sure of his Law of Love he should had spelled out the whole program right at the beginning and let me decide if I wanted to give my life to it. I feel betrayed by the leaders under whom I joined for not telling me of the free sex that was going on in secret.

Q: In your opinion, why do so many people talk about the group after being out for years?

Q: The family never lost one court case. Does that make the group look better and safer or not in your opinion?

A: Even if the group won 10 times as many court case, the facts of what has really happened in the COG do not change and remain the same. Unfortunately the group may look better and more safe as a result of the court cases, but only for those who don’t know the facts and don’t know better. The tragic thing with the English court case is that after the Judge exposed a lot of the child sexual abuse, he was convinced by the Family and pro-COG experts that the Family has changed, and thus it was a safe environment for little Sammy. The Family has not changed as Loving Jesus so clearly shows. Just because they had to cut back or ban child adult sex for pragmatic reasons it does not mean they have changed. They still believe it is part of the Law of Love, Zerby’s claims to the contrary notwithstanding. Another point is that though Sammy was returned to his mother in the cult, it is important to point out that Judge Ward’s first decision was to give the child to the grandmother. Judge Ward also stated that 5 or 10 years ago he would not had returned the child to his mother. It was a very close call. Another important point is that the Judge denied the group and their apologists’ request not to make the Judgment public. The Judgment, if you take the time to read it, and it is available on my web page, proves beyond a peradventure of a doubt that all the things the COG had been accused of were true. He also exposed the COGs for the big liars they are, as they constantly tried to lie to him. Judge Ward’s making his Judgment public is an important victory for our side. Any Judge in any country in the world can now download this document and read about all the child abuse and incest, Marisha masturbating her father, Jeremy Spencer, Berg molesting his granddaughter Merry. It’s all there. Concerning the court case in Spain, I don’t have a way of knowing for sure, but I have heard the Judge was bought off. Concerning the two Australian court cases, one was settled out of court, and in the other case the Child Services were ordered by a government official to settle our of court! So there was no victory in court. We know that the Family gave sex to one of their lawyers in Australia. There was no trial in Argentina as well. From what I remember a majority of two out of 3 Judges decided there was no case to try and the same happened in France. It was thrown out of court. Such judicial incompetence and failure to bring justice to this problem. By the way, TSC veteran Picus who kidnapped his children from USA many years ago, was recently ordered extradited from Argentina back to America. He was as of few months ago a fugitive. Why is he hiding? Does he not have the faith the Lord will give them another victory? Do you know of the ex-member and his wife that were found guilty of child abuse in France? He is serving a 20 or so year sentence for sexually molesting his daughters and his wife is serving a 3 or 4 year sentence for not reporting the child abuse to the authorities. I also heard of a case where the COG lost but I don’t know how true that is. There was also a small case in Argentina where a number of Family members were found guilty and were supposed to report back. I don’t remember if they had to report back for sentencing or to do time. At any rate a number of them did not return back.

Q: What do you think is one of the great needs for people when they leave the group?

A: The needs of ex-members exiting the group and particularly of those born and raised in the COG are overwhelming. As I said earlier from personal experience I know that the first year or so is particularly difficult. One of the greatest needs is for former members who feel themselves qualified, to take specific people or even an entire exiting family under their wings and sort of adapt them and be there for them for the long run but particularly for the first years.

Q: What kind off job do you have now?

A: I am a driver for a messenger service company.

A: My daughter was born in the COG but left when very little. She is doing fairly OK.

Q: Why most off the former menders didn't form another group, and why is much disagreement?

A: When Mary Lou was getting into the "Communication Revolution" with the Family, in part to counter that, I started asking people to join me in a more hard-line approach. I got some positive responses and could have started something but decided not too. One of the ex-members upon hearing of this loose association that I was forming responded by saying that she didn’t want to join another cult. People are afraid of joining anything after the COG experience. I personally would be against any attempts my former members to create COG II. Many who have left the COG, the COG still remains in them. I think it is risky to try to recycle a group like the COG. The only safe thing to do is to bury it under tons and tons of sand. Concerning the issue of disagreement, some of that of course is normal. In the Family you didn’t dare disagree with God’s prophet, and the letters and the leadership. It is very different from that out here. There is a lot of disagreement as well as a lot of agreement between various ministries and web pages of ex-members. For one thing our goals are not all the same. Mary Lou was more into ministering to former members. I do that also, but the way things turned out I have been more into working with the authorities, providing documentation against the Family, exposing the COG through TV, newspapers, and also through my writing. I have never gotten to the bottom of why was Marry Lou so antagonistic against me, but one ex-member has suggested that it might be because I was talking about unpleasant subjects like incest, etc. I am also sure that not everybody is happy with my showing those videos all over the world. If in your question you are specifically referring to the disagreements among former members you were working with you in your attempt to form Helpnet, you know more of the specifics, but I heard there were some disagreements between the view to overlook doctrine and concentrate more on the mission or "do-gooding" aspect of things. You know that doctrine always divides. Another ex-member you were working with was still a follower of David Berg’s doctrines in her hart, though she didn’t like the present leadership under Zerby and Kelly. I was shocked at some of the things she still believes. I mean, if someone comes out and is still ffing, it shouldn’t surprise you if there are colossal differences and disagreements between a person like that and myself for example. Despite all these factors I believe that former members overall are showing more and more signs of real unity between free individuals with a healthy liberty to disagree as opposed to the cookie-cutter type artificial unity in the Family.

Q: What kind of Bible school you went to, and what lessons you learned being out that can help others?

A: I got a Bachelor’s from a Nazarene Bible School and a Master’s and a Doctorate from two different Reformed seminaries. I also taught New testament Greek in the two Reformed seminaries. Taking Church History classes familiarized me with the history of heresies and give me a perspective of the relative unimportance within the context of overall history of our little cult. By the way, I distinctly remember studying the major heresy of the Cathars or Cathari or the "Clean Ones" with which I hear the Family is now identifying itself and supposedly receiving messages from. One thing in my experience that may help some people is that when I left I wouldn’t get a job not because I was lazy, but I thought I would be failing God if I did so and did not live by faith. I actually went hungry as a result. It was unnecessary. Also it took me two years before I allowed myself to enter a church. No need to be so negative and if you look hard enough you will find a church that you like to some degree. Though you may see many things you don’t like in the church that you are going to, that weekly input will help you spiritually.

Q: Does the Family have the right to exist?

A: It is out of the jurisdiction of the government to tell its citizens not to preach the Gospel. It is within the jurisdiction and authority of the government, as was the case in France before the raids, to outlaw even a religious association like the COG that breaks the law by practicing child adult sex, incest with children, sodomy with children, and prostitution of little children, sex of mothers with daughters, inhumane physical punishment, telling boys at 14 to imagine they have vaginas and that Jesus is sticking His penis in their vagina. It is within the government’s authority to outlaw an association of such individuals as part of a corrective and preventive measure aimed at protecting its citizens from harm.

Q: I hear that the persecution in Argentina, Australia, France, Philippines was orchestrated by you? Is that true or False?

A: It is false. I knew about the Argentine raid before it happened, but that’s about it. I sent videos to Argentina but I had nothing to do with the planting of videos during the raid if it is true that my videos were indeed planted. When I asked the lady that came with the two French policemen to interview ex-members in California why they had not contacted me earlier they said they were not sure that I was a real ex-member and that I was not working for the Family. One thing I regret is not correcting one of the French officers when I realized he believed that child-adult sex was still going on in the nineties. I had explained that this activity had stopped in at least one and I believe in two of my publications before. It may be that when they raided the homes they were expecting to find them red-handed molesting children. I provided information and documentation for the Australian case and that was the extend of my involvement there. I got a call from one of the child services people from Australia when she was in California. The brainchild for what happened in the Philippines was Ed Priebe. When I met him at the airport on his way there and he shared a few little things about what he was planning on doing, I told my wife later that this man is either crazy or a COG spy. What he and Daniel did there was a turning point in the fight against the COG and I am glad to have participated in it but I didn’t orchestrate it.

Q: When you heard that kids were mistreated in jail, what was your reaction?

A: I don’t know anything about the kids being mistreated in jail. The only complain I have heard is that the toilet or the room was not clean in one of the places they were detained. I have however heard of the French raids being bad. Few years ago I asked the woman that came with the policemen from France, if it is true that the raids were brutal and she said the COGs are exaggerating. I have wondered if what I have heard about the raids is just more COG propaganda. Few months ago Julia said the French raids were bad. I can’t remember anything she said about children being mistreated, though she may have. I was talking just a couple or so weeks ago to "Pam" who was in the Lyon raid, the worse of the two raids in France, and she also told me they were horrible. She said that both her and her sister are suffering from post traumatic problems because of the raid. She said the raids were gentler in Marseilles because of the media. She said the raids took place at 4:30-5:00 am. The policemen were about 20-25 year old. They dragged Joseph of Joseph and Confort out of his caravan, his knees bleeding by the gravel on the ground. Julia’s father was in handcuffs. I don’t know if Joseph is Julia’s father. Pam said the police thought they were the Brunch Davidians and were looking for weapons. They were in full riot gear with shields and automatic weapons. They yanked people by the hair, pushed them around, yelling and shouting and weaving guns. The ordeal was very embarrassing for the teen girls. Julia’s sister Danielle was handcuffed wearing only a T-shirt and panties. They wouldn’t allow to close the door to the girl’s room and therefore the policeman and other males could look inside. Adults and boys would come into the girls rooms and the girls couldn’t cover up. They couldn’t close the bathroom door. Another complain expressed by Pam was that they all had to drink water from the same cup. The kids were all flocked together out in the sun. I don’t know how much of the above is normal operating procedure for a raid of this kind but a lot of it looks excessive, though the policemen could argue that it was necessary. We are talking about a raid here not a Sunday picnic. I am not saying they were not mistreated. I am not justifying the authorities. I am also not responsible for what they do. The following point needs to also be made. After the group scaring the kids about the outside world for all their lives, repeating over and over how evil the systemites are, when the poor kids saw all these scary looking policemen, they must have been very frightened. The kids were probably convinced these bad policemen had come to get them. It would probably not have even entered into their minds that these policemen may had come in the role of a protector. I saw one of these police officers on TV (I don’t know if it was from the Marseilles or the Lyon raid) talking and he looked very much like a decent human being to me. I don’t know if it is true as Pam says that the policemen believed the COGs had guns. On the other hand we know first of all that the COGs were not even allowed to be on French soil. And of course the biggest issue was child sexual abuse. Pam told me that sexual molestation in the group had happened very frequently. She was raped at seven by a man in his thirties. She was penetrated by him and as a result she now can’t have children. She married recently, had ultrasound and found out she can’t have kids. She was raped around 1981-2, the time of the infamous Fellowship Revolution. Sex of 12 year olds with adults was common Pam said. The doctor examined the girls for sexual abuse. He declared Pam virgin in the medical records though she was not virgin since she was six years old. She pointed out to me that only those over 15 at the time of the raids could have signs of sexual abuse because of the changes of policy concerning child adult sex during the second half of the eighties. Pam also talked to me of public humiliation in the group, of paddling, of wearing signs. In the Philippines they were using a wide two feet long paddle to beat the kids with. Pam was made to wear a surgical mask because she was on silence restriction. Her sister was paddled for saying hi to her. So in response to your question of how I felt about the mistreatment of kids in jails, I would like to ask you how you felt about the mistreatment, physical abuse and sexual abuse of the kids in the group. It is I think extremely hypocritical of the Family to try to get mileage out of excesses of police officers, trying so hard to present the kids as victims of police aggression, when these very kids had suffered all that sexual, physical, emotional and spiritual abuse for all their lives. It is the abuse the COG has perpetrated against their own children that caused the arm of the law to reach out to protect and save these kids. If someone wants to write to me and give me a detailed and honest account of what really happened and what the authorities did, and in what exact way the children were mistreated in jail, I would be very interested in getting to the bottom of this, and forming a clear view of what really transpired. But I don’t want any COG propaganda and lies and exaggerations. By the way, I heard that in Spain they were separated from other children because of the sexual things the Family kids were doing but I don’t know exactly what the sexual things they were doing were. The idea was to protect other kids from the sexual behavior of the COG kids.

Q: Do you thing that Family will disband?

A: I don’t know. It would be nice finally to let all the kids go home. If Zerby wants to be remembered as a great woman of God, here is her opportunity to open her eyes to the truth, humble herself, accept the reality of the situation, realize she is deceived and start dismantling the group from within. She may have won a couple court cases here but there is a Big Judge that she will face one of these days and she won’t be able to lie to Him.

Q: How long you think you will be doing this? Do you feel it's God's will? Do your feel what you are doing is benefiting the people in the Family, In which way?

A: To answer your first question, I don’t see any reason to stop. To answer your second question, to the best of my knowledge it is within God’s general will for me to be doing what I am doing. To answer the third question, I never thought much in terms of my actions benefiting the people in the Family. It is nevertheless true that the people in the Family are benefiting by anti-COG action in the sense that only God knows to what. Depths of degradation they would had degenerated if it was not for the arm of the law that knocked enough fear into them to make them stop molesting children and beating them and making them wear surgical masks, isolating them for months is some upper attic all by themselves.

Q: Do you still have contact with the group?

Q: What do you think of0f the Laurel Home Fellowships?

A: I am still forming my opinion concerning the fellowships at Laurel Home. My participating in them does not mean I endorse them. For those who might be wondering about and even questioning my relationship with Barney, I would like to take this opportunity to explain. The Laurel Home is a TS home and thus by definition part of the Family. Barney however has tried to take an independent path. I have to be honest and say I am suspicious of all of this but at the same time I want to remain open to any possible positive developments that may come out my association with the Laurel Home.

Q: Tell us about your ministry?

A: It is very encouraging to see how the pot keeps getting stirred up by one development in the ex-COG community after another. People that I would had least expected are rising to the occasion and picking up the mantle and doing great things. When it looks like nothing is going on and things are dying down some new things comes up. It just keeps going on. Just recently I had contact with ex-members in two different nations that are the kind of people who have the ability to represent their countries in the crusade against the COG. Also some things have happened that were totally unexpected, the biggest example of which is what transpired in the Philippines during the early nineties. Another most major development has been all the ex-COG web pages. I hate to sound presumptuous, but who knows, maybe God is closer to us, though I wonder where He would find the time after speaking so much to Zerby, and doing so many movie reviews and having so much sex with the group’s members.

Q: If somebody wants to join the Family and somebody wants to leave what would be your counsel?

A: To the one thinking of joining I would say, don’t do it. To the other one I would say, don’t walk, run.