I've heard it said that another way to get a dog to let go his bone is to offer him a steak.

> Joel:

> The Jesus Movement began in San
> Francisco--you weren't there, and had
> nothing to do with it. And, Berg wasn’t
> there, and he didn’t start it.

> That was 1965, not '68. Berg had already had
> molestation experiences with both sexes as a
> child, himself, had cheated on his wife
> massively, while stilll in the Christian and
> Missionary Alliance, had already molested
> Faithy, and had his eyes on Deborah--he had
> "eyes full of adultery, and could not
> cease from sin". He was a hardcore
> reprobate when you first met him, Joel; not
> a man of God--not even a Christian. God
> saved people in spite of him, NEVER because
> of him. Face it: there NEVER WAS A SO-CALLED
> JESUS REVOLUTION.

> Berg was only a revolting old failure, and
> not a revolutionary of any kind; especially
> a Christian one--get real. Neither were you,
> or any of us.

> He was actively pursuing ANYTHING BUT the
> real Gospel, or promoting an actual
> Christian lifestyle--his always was, and
> will always be, a DEATHstyle.

> With "feigned words", he
> "made merchandise" of all of us
> who CHOSE to follow him. He promised us
> "liberty", while he himself was
> only a "servant of corruption": he
> was NEVER even a servant of God; much less
> someone chosen and called to "speak
> for" Him. He just corrupted Messianic
> prophecies--read 'em again, Joel. They were
> all about Jesus, and Berg chose to turn
> HIMSELF into a worthlesss turd.

> He came to Huntington Beach, still under the
> shadow of his emasculating Mommy, took over
> something SHE started, old "scarcely
> saved", eagerly dishonest self-promoter
> also-ran pseudo-evangelist actually
> unrepentant lukewarm puke that she always
> was, and found a way to pull a long con on
> the young and naive, by creating a cult that
> was merely his own life, writ large. He
> found a way to preserve and promote his own
> megalomaniacal religious and sexual
> perversions and filth, in the lives of
> others.

> He began with a "root of
> bitterness" and, predictably, ended up
> with a profane and adulterous life, and
> worse. He moved on to sexually molest
> children, even his own; even his own
> grandchildren. He refused to put away
> "all filthiness of the flesh and
> spirit"; choosing instead to revel in
> it, and to encourage every kind of
> abomination. The following you then joined
> went on to become everything the Bible warns
> us about regarding false prophets, false
> brethren, and false teachers.

> That means you; Joel Wordsworth. You are a
> fake. And, that's the "truth, spoken in
> love". You can quote a lot of
> Scripture, Joel. You just don't choose to
> live any of it. What you say "falls to
> the ground". It has no authority--no
> "punch"; no actual reality in the
> real kingdom of God, and it NEVER WILL;
> should you continue to hold on to Berg's
> turds. It's NOT good to "Be a
> Toilet", and "you ARE what you
> EAT".

> You got swept in, like the rest of us. You
> became a false teacher for a false prophet.

> An old black comedienne, Moms Mabely, said
> someone told her "You should only speak
> good of the dead" when she complained
> about her dead "beatin' and
> cheatin'" ex-husband.

> Along with her response, I echo it in
> reference to Berg: "He's dead!
> Good!"

> He's not coming back, and you will never be
> important. It was, and is, a very small
> cult, full of nasty little perverts,
> bullies, Gospel bums who actually DO know
> better, and FOREVER "halting baby
> Christians" who have REFUSED to grow up
> and believe the Bible over Berg and Marias'
> frauds, forgeries and demon-channelings,
> some for OVER 30+ YEARS; mostly.

> Don't forget the children born into it. They
> are probably NOT "seeking to be
> teachers" to the entire body of Christ,
> worldwide; they'll be innocent till they
> attain the "age of
> accountability", and choose to ignore
> their own consciences and common sense, and
> what the Bible plainly says, and choose to
> promote Berg's drivel.

> And, again predictably, most people who see
> them on the street will probably just feel
> continue to fell sorry for them; like I do
> for them--like I also do for you.

> Do you still want THAT for a legacy? You're
> not getting the one you're still fantasizing
> about; Joel.

> What about you? Do you WANT the
> "greater condemnation" that comes
> from that self-aggrandizing desire? Really?
> Do you just HAVE to think of yourself as
> some "great teacher"?

> You are not. You have been, and to the
> degree that you believe and push ANY of
> Berg's crap, still are a FALSE TEACHER;
> yourself. Let it go; it's not real, and has
> terrible consequences. And you know that's
> true--God did NOT send you to post here to
> draw us back into Berg's vile ways. Please
> DROP IT!

> Please; for your own sake. You could also be
> a tremendous testimony as a FORMER false
> teacher of a horrible little false prophet
> who conned mostly a bunch of unstable
> hippie-wannabes; myself included. Don't
> continue to partake of his sin--it's a HUGE
> one.

> Think about it.

> God love you, Joel, one of the reasons I
> questioned Berg's being a prophet, was that
> I listened to an accidentally NOT
> "purged" tape of yours, and you
> mentioned "questionable verses"
> that were obviously contrary to Berg
> doctrine.

> It helped me to leave, and to learn
> Scripture for myself. You're out of the
> cult, too, Joel, at least technically, but a
> lot of it's NOT out of you.

> Here's the deal: Berg stole most of the
> "accurate Christian doctrine" he
> used to bait the hook of his "earthly,
> sensual and devilish" crap, from C
> & MA, other "Bapta-costals",
> and other pre-Darby post-trib rapturists,
> and others. He plagiarized
> "Flatlanders"; it was written in
> the 1800s. He was a massive plagiarizer.

> So, your "time of the end" rants
> are based on some true doctrine, yes, but
> the crap you constantly throw in is not from
> God, Joel.

> It's just silly, non-sensical crap that
> makes you important in your own eyes. You
> didn't originate any part of it that was
> originally true, you just learned to parrot
> it as just another absurd cult member; Berg
> conned you just like he did the rest of us.

> Face it. Your first gig was as a dupe for a
> pedophilic false prophet. That's who you
> really were. He died; earthly, sensual and
> devilish, and all his prophecies failed.

> His one chance of a large-scale proof for
> who he claimed to be, in the Phillippines,
> failed miserably--a "prophet" had
> NOT spoken. And the disloyal (to you) old
> lowlife had already run you off--he had your
> teachings purged and burned, and so on. You
> essentially got "fired".

> You'll NEVER get back in his favor; Joel.
> You are NOT his mouthpiece, any more. He
> used you, he's dead, and he is in HELL.

> Now, as you are rapidly becoming an old man
> (so am I), you are really becoming pitiful,
> and by choice!

> You are NOT any kind of spokesman for any
> kind of truth, new revelation, or whatever.
> You're conning yourself, and no one here
> believes anything you say.

> Carmel probably doesn't either--have you
> asked her, or are you just a self-important
> bully!?

> It's just you, unable to let go of your
> past. Face it, we all did!

> You're just a "nobody", like the
> rest of us exers, Joel--relax and enjoy it.
> God, the real God (NOT the one you think
> approves of your BS doctrinal fantasies)
> still loves you.

> You don't have to "produce"
> anything--you cannot get Him to love you any
> more than He already does! Let go of the
> false teacher bit! I know it's an addictive
> little pretend gig, you get a lot of
> undeserved and fantasized significance for
> yourself out of it; Joel. We understand.

> John 8:31, 32, 38. Get back to the
> simplicity that's in Christ, Joel. You've
> seduced yourself, and need to repent.

> By definition, you are a spiritual baby; not
> a giant. Get back to the "first
> principles" (Hebrews 5 & 6). No one
> looks up to you any more in regards to
> Scripture. No one.

> MOST of us know, and accept, FAR more than
> you do, what the Bible ACTUALLY says--face
> it & get over it; even if that's
> humbling. It beats humiliation and severity,
> later.

> You'll probably find some obscure reference,
> or several you habitually string together
> non-sensically, and tell yourself you got
> the best of me, or out-quoted me, or
> whatever.

> For your own sake, could you please not do
> that this time, and actually begin your real
> post-cult recovery? Anything alse is a waste
> of time for all the rest of us, Joel, and a
> continual waste of your life for you; it's
> very sad.

> Joel, I learned, over 31 years ago, now (I
> left TF in '74) to think for myself.

> I have a really healthy IQ, a great memory
> (thank God)and have probably read the Bible
> more times than even you have by now.

> Attacking me personally with Bible verses
> won't, hurt me, help me, convince me of your
> weird and twisted un-Scriptural BS, or
> anything.

> And I won't enter into a "Scripture
> Ping Pong"; quoting verses uselessly
> back and forth--thta won't help you.

> And, someone needs to tel you; it may as
> well be me.

> It'll just continue to make me feel real
> sorry for you, and to continue to pray for
> you, if you just keep tripping on yourself.

> You LIKE the imaginary megalomaniacal
> caricature of a Christian you've turned
> yourself into; Joel. I get it.

> You may never let go.

> I hope you do.

> You're not a "teacher/prophet" for
> a vile old man who conned a lot of
> counterculture kids into believing he was
> from God--you're still one of his victims if
> you don't let go of all the BS you've
> twisted and wrested together to make
> yourself something you never were.

> I am glad you read here--your posts,
> however, have no value, except to show how
> really screwed up a person like you can get
> BECAUSE of the cult, or, better, to
> encourage others' kindness toward you, and
> as a very regular prayer reminder for us to
> pray for you--give it up, old man--do your
> poor wife the favor, get some peace in your
> life, and stop refusing to "endure
> sound doctrine"--you're making your own
> ears itch for your own self-deceptions, my
> friend.

> Give it up, old man. Giv it up.

> We should probably not concentrate on
> "diverse and strange
> doctrines"--there's really no harm in
> discussing eschatology.

> Personally, I am a non-preterist
> post-trib/pre-wrath person on this question.
> But, so what?

> Jesus told some folks asking about the
> timing of things in His life. Referring
> prophetically to Himself, He said "My
> time is not yet come".

> We should probably focus on what He said
> next: "Your time is always ready".

> People here love you--it's just that no one
> thinks you're who you're pretending you are.
> Give it up; please.

> In Christ,

> OT2 (OldtimerToo)