>Dear "OT-2",

If there is no fear on your part, please make yourself known, as Joel and I have. Since you have advised others to drop all cloaks, let us meet, man and woman to man. Or are you a female?

Just a quick response to your post which included suppositions about me, Carmel:

Whoever you are, I think it is unwise for you to state that "no one" on this website which is declared to be an OPEN HOUSE for the entire World, "no one" believes or is interested in "anything" Joel has to say! The very post which you critiqued was Joel's ANSWER to questions posed by Daniel TO Joel, about the last days spoken of in the book of Daniel.

Furthermore, even though you personally may believe that no one could possibly be interested simply because YOU and a few other "OTs" are not, there is a possibility that when some of these things begin to come to pass, more people will want to look a little CLOSER at what was predicted back in 2006! Many people HAVE in the past, and are even NOW SCOURING Nostradamus' and Edgar Kasey's predictions, searching for any SOLID PROOFS of PROPHECY.

And to take it upon yourself to also "scientifically" state that MO IS DEAD, STILL without presenting the PROOF of ONE decomposed CELL, makes you sound like you never really DID learn that lesson that God so painstakingly tried to get through all our thick sculls: NEVER believe something JUST because someone SAID it. INSIST on PROOF, and NEVER let yourself be DUPED by "leaders", again, even tho & especially if, they call themselves "The Top!" I ask you: "WHO instigated that LIE that MO is dead? And WHO in their right minds in the rest of the world would ever BUY such nonsense, when the multimillionaire MO, oh, so conveniently DISAPPEARED "to his everlasting heavenly reward", JUST in the NICK of TIME when there was a worldwide man-hunt going on for him?--Especially since being caught, would have meant CERTAIN DEATH for him, since, fellow prisoners KILL "baby-rapers", like MO! (Maria's)Peter himself stated in a tape recording at the time of their escape into hiding that the International Police Force of Europe had set up border checks in all countries and that "it was a MIRACLE of God's protection" that they JUST missed catching them as they passed through the German border. Didn't you hear that tape? If MO was dead and safely buried away somewhere, what was the big miracle?

If you are the same Old Timer 2 who, I believe, read what I had to say about MY OWN beliefs a while back, you KNOW, as do the main sharers on this board, that I try as best as I can NOT to make the mistake of kissing ANY MAN OR WOMAN's filthy butt, since I LEARNED from my experiences in the "Family" that that STANK.

Also, since I very sincerely FEAR GOD, "I know NOT to give flattering titles(to Joel, or to ANYONE), for in so doing MY MAKER would soon take me away." Job 32:21

I am very personally, fiercely interested in Bible prophecies, as the way they amazingly connect together is the most miraculous and intriguing thing that I have seen in the entire world, to date.

Yes, I will confess that there are many Bibical secrets that I have seen both within Joel's studies and my OWN, however I am not as eager as Joel to share them or GIVE them away to just ANYBODY, AS YET, and there is a reason!: In the Latter Days "the Robbers of thy people shall EXALT THEMSELVES to (try to) establish the VISION."(and thereby harm and control the sheep the way the Devil's religious people always HAVE, and WORSE). The less info they know about how God is PRECISELY going to fulfill the last days on earth, the better!

When the true unsealed Mysteries of the Ancient pages of the Bible begin to unfold, people worldwide will be ASTOUNDED at the revelation of the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God!

They will "WONDER" at the seven shepherds and eight principal men" who took the time to SCOUR His every Word in order to defend the rest of us AGAINST the Antichirst Beast whose LIES, at the same time will cause "all the world to WONDER" because "he shall UNDERSTAND dark sentences, and his power shall be MIGHTY, but not by his OWN power(by Satan's!!!), and he shall DESTROY WONDERFULLY(mentally) the mighty and the holy people" who haven't studied close enough!

But the people who do KNOW the True God(WORD) and the True Jesus Christ(WORD), (NOT the present-day's wimpy, religiosity portrayl of these 2 Great Beings), but the people who take the time to KNOW the REAL God Almighty & His Son, shall be Strong and do exploits! People worldwide will fear and respect the Real God like never before, because HE WILL PROVE that He KNEW and predicted everything that they were gonna try to pull from the very beginning of time!

That's why He came and left with such a seemingly meek, sheep-before-her-shearers presentation the FIRST time!

Then all these years He's ALLOWED them to TAKE ADVANTAGE of Him as if He was someone who wasn't WATCHING all that closely, someone who would just "turn the other cheek", "never leave nor forsake them" no matter how they treated Him, and He's ALLOWED them to FOCUS almost ALL their attentions and LOVE on their earthly property and endeavors, just USING Him as a fire escape in the end, "just in the nick of time", being raised victoriously to be fellow conquerors and leaders with him, owning their own personalized mansion, each. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! What a SUCKER most people take Him for! But He who pre-warned, and will enjoy "COMING AS A THIEF", will have the Last Laugh at the real suckers!

Yes, I am looking for the great UNVEILING of the true PERSONALITIES of God & Jesus Christ, who enjoy creating mysteries and HIDING things from people who don't put forth the energy to search the Scriptures daily, who enjoy seeing them and their blind leaders FALL into the DITCH, who enjoy shocking them and "spreading dung upon their faces" because they insisted upon THEIR OWN idea of how they wanted and expected "God and Jesus" to behave, their own requirements of The Almighties' speech & actions!

--But I look for the God & Jesus of the Bible, who obviously enjoy saying and doing things that religiously-conditioned people couldn't believe would ever come out of Their Mouths, PAINFUL things, SHARP things, SWORDLIKE things--You know, Old Timer, I LOOK FORWARD TO the REAL soon coming Return of the REAL Jesus Christ, as a THIEF, coming EXACTLY as He oh, so perfectly described Himself in Revelation 19:10-21:

"Worship God! for the TESTIMONY of Jesus is (fulfilled)PROPHECY!" (What?) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth JUDGE and MAKE WAR!" (oh, goodness me! Now why would he ever want to do THAT?)

"His EYES were as a flame of FIRE! And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in BLOOD,(yuk!) and his NAME is called The Word of God...which no man knew"!!

"And the ARMIES which were in heaven FOLLOWED HIM upon white horses!" (Armies?! What are THOSE FOR? Where are all the clouds, harps and mansions??)

"And out of His MOUTH goeth a SHARP SWORD, that with it he should SMITE the nations: and he shall RULE them" with a turned cheek, oops, No, it says here: "with a ROD of IRON: and he treadeth the winepress of the FIERCENESS and WRATH of ALMIGHTY GOD!" Oh, goodness me, Land sakes! WHY is he SO ANGRY? (sounds like he could use some anger-management classes!)

"And He hath a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."(Bible's own Capitals!)

"And I saw an angel standing right in the sun: and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the FOWLS that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God;"

"That you may EAT the FLESH of kings, and captains, mighty men, horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men,"(oooh ish!)

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered together to MAKE WAR against Him that sat on the horse, and against his army,"

"And the beast was taken!, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he DECEIVED them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAKE of FIRE, burning with brimstone."(But that would smell, wouldn't it?)

"And (as if that wasn't enough!) the remnant were SLAIN with THE SWORD of Him that sat upon the horse, which SWORD proceeded out of HIS MOUTH: and all the FOWLS were FILLED with their FLESH!" (Well, now does THAT sound acceptable to YOU? I don't think MY community will go for THAT! I NEVER hear Pastor Lick-My-Butt teach THAT chapter!--How FOUL! That must be a misinterpretation! I sure wouldn't be tithing MY hard earned dollars to any pastor that taught stuff like THAT!--THAT's not the Jesus WE all know and accept!)

Anyone for PUNCH?

Blessed are all they that Love OUR Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity! OXOXOX Love, Carmel Wordsworth

> The Jesus Movement began in San
> Francisco--you weren't there, and had
> nothing to do with it. And, Berg wasn’t
> there, and he didn’t start it.

> That was 1965, not '68. Berg had already had
> molestation experiences with both sexes as a
> child, himself, had cheated on his wife
> massively, while stilll in the Christian and
> Missionary Alliance, had already molested
> Faithy, and had his eyes on Deborah--he had
> "eyes full of adultery, and could not
> cease from sin". He was a hardcore
> reprobate when you first met him, Joel; not
> a man of God--not even a Christian. God
> saved people in spite of him, NEVER because
> of him. Face it: there NEVER WAS A SO-CALLED
> JESUS REVOLUTION.

> Berg was only a revolting old failure, and
> not a revolutionary of any kind; especially
> a Christian one--get real. Neither were you,
> or any of us.

> He was actively pursuing ANYTHING BUT the
> real Gospel, or promoting an actual
> Christian lifestyle--his always was, and
> will always be, a DEATHstyle.

> With "feigned words", he
> "made merchandise" of all of us
> who CHOSE to follow him. He promised us
> "liberty", while he himself was
> only a "servant of corruption": he
> was NEVER even a servant of God; much less
> someone chosen and called to "speak
> for" Him. He just corrupted Messianic
> prophecies--read 'em again, Joel. They were
> all about Jesus, and Berg chose to turn
> HIMSELF into a worthlesss turd.

> He came to Huntington Beach, still under the
> shadow of his emasculating Mommy, took over
> something SHE started, old "scarcely
> saved", eagerly dishonest self-promoter
> also-ran pseudo-evangelist actually
> unrepentant lukewarm puke that she always
> was, and found a way to pull a long con on
> the young and naive, by creating a cult that
> was merely his own life, writ large. He
> found a way to preserve and promote his own
> megalomaniacal religious and sexual
> perversions and filth, in the lives of
> others.

> He began with a "root of
> bitterness" and, predictably, ended up
> with a profane and adulterous life, and
> worse. He moved on to sexually molest
> children, even his own; even his own
> grandchildren. He refused to put away
> "all filthiness of the flesh and
> spirit"; choosing instead to revel in
> it, and to encourage every kind of
> abomination. The following you then joined
> went on to become everything the Bible warns
> us about regarding false prophets, false
> brethren, and false teachers.

> That means you; Joel Wordsworth. You are a
> fake. And, that's the "truth, spoken in
> love". You can quote a lot of
> Scripture, Joel. You just don't choose to
> live any of it. What you say "falls to
> the ground". It has no authority--no
> "punch"; no actual reality in the
> real kingdom of God, and it NEVER WILL;
> should you continue to hold on to Berg's
> turds. It's NOT good to "Be a
> Toilet", and "you ARE what you
> EAT".

> You got swept in, like the rest of us. You
> became a false teacher for a false prophet.

> An old black comedienne, Moms Mabely, said
> someone told her "You should only speak
> good of the dead" when she complained
> about her dead "beatin' and
> cheatin'" ex-husband.

> Along with her response, I echo it in
> reference to Berg: "He's dead!
> Good!"

> He's not coming back, and you will never be
> important. It was, and is, a very small
> cult, full of nasty little perverts,
> bullies, Gospel bums who actually DO know
> better, and FOREVER "halting baby
> Christians" who have REFUSED to grow up
> and believe the Bible over Berg and Marias'
> frauds, forgeries and demon-channelings,
> some for OVER 30+ YEARS; mostly.

> Don't forget the children born into it. They
> are probably NOT "seeking to be
> teachers" to the entire body of Christ,
> worldwide; they'll be innocent till they
> attain the "age of
> accountability", and choose to ignore
> their own consciences and common sense, and
> what the Bible plainly says, and choose to
> promote Berg's drivel.

> And, again predictably, most people who see
> them on the street will probably just feel
> continue to fell sorry for them; like I do
> for them--like I also do for you.

> Do you still want THAT for a legacy? You're
> not getting the one you're still fantasizing
> about; Joel.

> What about you? Do you WANT the
> "greater condemnation" that comes
> from that self-aggrandizing desire? Really?
> Do you just HAVE to think of yourself as
> some "great teacher"?

> You are not. You have been, and to the
> degree that you believe and push ANY of
> Berg's crap, still are a FALSE TEACHER;
> yourself. Let it go; it's not real, and has
> terrible consequences. And you know that's
> true--God did NOT send you to post here to
> draw us back into Berg's vile ways. Please
> DROP IT!

> Please; for your own sake. You could also be
> a tremendous testimony as a FORMER false
> teacher of a horrible little false prophet
> who conned mostly a bunch of unstable
> hippie-wannabes; myself included. Don't
> continue to partake of his sin--it's a HUGE
> one.

> Think about it.

> God love you, Joel, one of the reasons I
> questioned Berg's being a prophet, was that
> I listened to an accidentally NOT
> "purged" tape of yours, and you
> mentioned "questionable verses"
> that were obviously contrary to Berg
> doctrine.

> It helped me to leave, and to learn
> Scripture for myself. You're out of the
> cult, too, Joel, at least technically, but a
> lot of it's NOT out of you.

> Here's the deal: Berg stole most of the
> "accurate Christian doctrine" he
> used to bait the hook of his "earthly,
> sensual and devilish" crap, from C
> & MA, other "Bapta-costals",
> and other pre-Darby post-trib rapturists,
> and others. He plagiarized
> "Flatlanders"; it was written in
> the 1800s. He was a massive plagiarizer.

> So, your "time of the end" rants
> are based on some true doctrine, yes, but
> the crap you constantly throw in is not from
> God, Joel.

> It's just silly, non-sensical crap that
> makes you important in your own eyes. You
> didn't originate any part of it that was
> originally true, you just learned to parrot
> it as just another absurd cult member; Berg
> conned you just like he did the rest of us.

> Face it. Your first gig was as a dupe for a
> pedophilic false prophet. That's who you
> really were. He died; earthly, sensual and
> devilish, and all his prophecies failed.

> His one chance of a large-scale proof for
> who he claimed to be, in the Phillippines,
> failed miserably--a "prophet" had
> NOT spoken. And the disloyal (to you) old
> lowlife had already run you off--he had your
> teachings purged and burned, and so on. You
> essentially got "fired".

> You'll NEVER get back in his favor; Joel.
> You are NOT his mouthpiece, any more. He
> used you, he's dead, and he is in HELL.

> Now, as you are rapidly becoming an old man
> (so am I), you are really becoming pitiful,
> and by choice!

> You are NOT any kind of spokesman for any
> kind of truth, new revelation, or whatever.
> You're conning yourself, and no one here
> believes anything you say.

> Carmel probably doesn't either--have you
> asked her, or are you just a self-important
> bully!?

> It's just you, unable to let go of your
> past. Face it, we all did!

> You're just a "nobody", like the
> rest of us exers, Joel--relax and enjoy it.
> God, the real God (NOT the one you think
> approves of your BS doctrinal fantasies)
> still loves you.

> You don't have to "produce"
> anything--you cannot get Him to love you any
> more than He already does! Let go of the
> false teacher bit! I know it's an addictive
> little pretend gig, you get a lot of
> undeserved and fantasized significance for
> yourself out of it; Joel. We understand.

> John 8:31, 32, 38. Get back to the
> simplicity that's in Christ, Joel. You've
> seduced yourself, and need to repent.

> By definition, you are a spiritual baby; not
> a giant. Get back to the "first
> principles" (Hebrews 5 & 6). No one
> looks up to you any more in regards to
> Scripture. No one.

> MOST of us know, and accept, FAR more than
> you do, what the Bible ACTUALLY says--face
> it & get over it; even if that's
> humbling. It beats humiliation and severity,
> later.

> You'll probably find some obscure reference,
> or several you habitually string together
> non-sensically, and tell yourself you got
> the best of me, or out-quoted me, or
> whatever.

> For your own sake, could you please not do
> that this time, and actually begin your real
> post-cult recovery? Anything alse is a waste
> of time for all the rest of us, Joel, and a
> continual waste of your life for you; it's
> very sad.

> Joel, I learned, over 31 years ago, now (I
> left TF in '74) to think for myself.

> I have a really healthy IQ, a great memory
> (thank God)and have probably read the Bible
> more times than even you have by now.

> Attacking me personally with Bible verses
> won't, hurt me, help me, convince me of your
> weird and twisted un-Scriptural BS, or
> anything.

> And I won't enter into a "Scripture
> Ping Pong"; quoting verses uselessly
> back and forth--thta won't help you.

> And, someone needs to tel you; it may as
> well be me.

> It'll just continue to make me feel real
> sorry for you, and to continue to pray for
> you, if you just keep tripping on yourself.

> You LIKE the imaginary megalomaniacal
> caricature of a Christian you've turned
> yourself into; Joel. I get it.

> You may never let go.

> I hope you do.

> You're not a "teacher/prophet" for
> a vile old man who conned a lot of
> counterculture kids into believing he was
> from God--you're still one of his victims if
> you don't let go of all the BS you've
> twisted and wrested together to make
> yourself something you never were.

> I am glad you read here--your posts,
> however, have no value, except to show how
> really screwed up a person like you can get
> BECAUSE of the cult, or, better, to
> encourage others' kindness toward you, and
> as a very regular prayer reminder for us to
> pray for you--give it up, old man--do your
> poor wife the favor, get some peace in your
> life, and stop refusing to "endure
> sound doctrine"--you're making your own
> ears itch for your own self-deceptions, my
> friend.

> Give it up, old man. Giv it up.

> We should probably not concentrate on
> "diverse and strange
> doctrines"--there's really no harm in
> discussing eschatology.

> Personally, I am a non-preterist
> post-trib/pre-wrath person on this question.
> But, so what?

> Jesus told some folks asking about the
> timing of things in His life. Referring
> prophetically to Himself, He said "My
> time is not yet come".

> We should probably focus on what He said
> next: "Your time is always ready".

> People here love you--it's just that no one
> thinks you're who you're pretending you are.
> Give it up; please.

> In Christ,

> OT2 (OldtimerToo)