Hi.

Thanks for your post. I am always eager to read what you write, Bro'.

Earlier, I may have appeared to imply, in posts to Joel, that Darby should be considered as the historic "beginning" for Pre-Trib rapture doctrine; at those times I knew he was not, but that there were instances of the doctrine at an earlier time, especially with respect to Margaret McDonald in the 1840s.

At http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/index.html, it’s noted that:

-the early church was unanimously post-trib, as were all of the doctrinally sound early church fathers, or “disciples of the first disciples”, who were told to teach literally everything Jesus taught them (Mt 24, Mk 13 & Lk 21 included!), and did so.

-the Medieval RC church BEGAN the allegorization of OT prophecies, including the Rapture, as well as Amillenianism, although remaining post-trib.

-some 16th century Christians BEGAN the “day/year” interpretation of Daniel’s/Revelation’s prophecies regarding 1260 days, etc., called Rome the “holy city”/Whore of Revelation, the Pope the AC, and the period they lived in, as well as the entire “Church Age”, the Great Tribulation”, with a post-trib Rapture to have ended it—they were therefore a “new type of post-Trib”. Then,

-"a Father Manuel de Lacunza, a Jesuit priest, in 1790, “…wrote a book on prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, which was published in Spain in 1812. Fr. de Lacunza wrote under the pen name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra (a converted Jew), allegedly to avoid detection since his book ended up on Rome's banned books list. Fr. de Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal interpretation of prophecy, and the primitive "futurist" view of Revelation. He rejected the "year-day" theory of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a personal Antichrist and future tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the coming of the Lord. He did not espouse a pre-trib rapture, as has been claimed.”

-"EDWARD IRVING-In the 1820s,
(http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/irvingbio.html), pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. Irving became aware of Father de Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it, he took it upon himself to translate it into English, adding a "preliminary discourse" of his own. Irving's English translation was published in 1827. Some of Irving's early prophetic views can be discerned from his "preliminary discourse," including, surprisingly, all the key elements of dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings. Irving, in his "preliminary discourse," indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation beginning Christmas 1825, years before Darby is alleged to have arrived at his dispensational ideas Irving had been preaching that God would restore Apostles and prophets to the Church, and a great Pentecostal outpouring would come just before the soon return of Jesus Christ."

-"Right on schedule, rumors of healings, tongues, visions, and other manifestations began circulating in Port Glasgow, Scotland, from the home of James and George MacDonald, and their sister Margaret. People came from England, Ireland, and parts of Scotland to observe the supernatural manifestations in the "prayer meetings" held by the MacDonalds. The "revival" soon spread to Irving's church, with "tongues" and other "manifestations" breaking out, especially among the women. Due to the strange goings on in Irving's church, and his heretical views on the person of Christ, Irving was eventually defrocked by the Church of Scotland, and moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church. (Irving taught that Jesus had a fallen sinful nature and only kept from sinning by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is similar to the teachings of some modern Charismatics, who see Jesus as the "proto-type Christian"). Not only were prophetic revelations and other alleged miracles occurring in Irving's congregation, but such "revelations" seemed to focus on end-time prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord. February - June, 1830: Out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, and the eschatological influence of de Lacunza's futurist/dispensationalism, emerged the very first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture. This was first articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving."

Very interesting historical stuff!

Here's a quote from a webpage I have read frequently in the past; which mentions Darby as the greatest "salesman" for the pre-Trib position, and I certainly agree with that:

"The Irvingite pre-trib (gathering of the elite) rapture was not as much the result of the outworkings of Irving's dispensational leanings, but rather grew out of alleged gifts of prophecy among Scottish/English Charismania. Darby seems to have given the whole theory a facelift, and fine-tuned a theological system whereby a full pre-trib rapture could be sold to the public, who would naturally be skeptical of the excesses of the Irvingites. So, while Darby did not originate the pre-trib rapture idea, he gave it some respectability. As it turns out, Darby became its greatest salesman."

So, the "excesses of the Irvingites" included "Charismania", and just holding out McDonald as the "originator" was "bad PR/Marketing" at the time, so Darby was not honest about it!

Here's are some URLs that deal quite extensively with the subject (the first being the Home page for the one I just shared):

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/#resource
http://www.bereancouncil.org/
http://www.biblestudying.net/index.html
http://www.endtimepilgrim.org/

'Later!

Sincerely,
OT2 (OldtimerToo)